| Name | Bloodcrusher | Hounds |
|---|---|---|
| Average Wounds | 2.4 | .44 |
| Survivability | 3 Wounds | 2 Wounds |
| Strength | 5 | 4 |
| Upgrades? | Yes | No |
| Cost? | 45 | 16 |
| Cost per wound | 18.4 | 36.4 |
So here's my comparison. Bloodcrushers are better than Hounds in all feasible ways. They're more expensive but you'd need 5 and a half Hounds to equal the wounds of 1 charging Bloodcrusher. Neato.
Someone said that you don't take units for the wound potential and it's a bad way to judge a unit. Fair I guess but in this case you're simply getting less. Hounds are cheap attacks, fine, but Furies are cheaper and better: With a Slaaneshi Furie you get .3 wounds per guy. For half the points of Hounds. They can also get a re-roll to charge. Imagine getting your big ol' Hound unit up near a tasty MEQ force and you fail the charge distance. Have fun getting shot to death.
10 Hounds plus Karanak [280 points]
(40 Attacks, 6 Hatred Attacks)
7.2 wounds on the charge vs. MEQ
What else can you get for that?
3 Exalted Chariots of Slaanesh with and Etherblade and a lesser gift each
(12d6 Rending Hammer of Wrath Attacks, 15 (+bonus) AP3 attacks) [285 points]
19.5 wounds on the charge vs. MEQ [10.8 Hammer of Wrath, 8.6 CC]
20 man Slaaneshi Furie unit
(40 Hammer of Wrath Attacks, 80 Rending attacks) [165 points]
8.8 wounds on the charge vs. MEQ [3.3 Hammer of Wrath, 5.5 CC]
Note: This is 120 points less. Aka a Karanak's worth
3 Juggernauts w/Banner of Blood and a Juggernaut Herald with Locus of Fury
(4 Hammer of Wrath Attacks, 21 AP3 attacks w/re-roll charge distance) [275 points]
15 wounds on the charge vs. MEQ [3.3 Hammer of Wrath, 11.6 CC)
Each of these units has the three things I've heard argued that Hounds have: Survivability, mobility and powerful CC. They all cost pretty much the same (or way less). They are have similar survivability. Though the Juggernauts only have half as many wounds. Wish they still had armor :'( . The mobility is pretty much exactly the same or better but now you get Hammer of Wrath attacks with all of them. You get double or better wound average for each of these other units. So now my question is: What does the Karanak squad have?
Scout. This is what makes Karanak and Hounds 'competitive'. So now, you've put your killer unit well within firing range of everything on my side of the board. Some people will say, "Ha! waste your shots on them" and I say, "Sure!" 280 points? And I can kill it turn 1 with bolters and heavy weapons? At 1500 points I just nuked ~20% of your army. At 2000 about 15%. But at both of those points if I'm able to do that in 1 turn that means by turn 5 you'll be wiped.
Assault Marines and Hounds are similar points but do twice as many wounds in close combat (4.4 vs. 2.2, the above ones had Rage added). Now which one can withstand small arms fire? Which one has Daemonic instability every time you lose combat? In a fight against assault marines Hounds lose most of the time. In the average fight Hounds lose by 2 then have to take instability on ld 3. Meaning they take additional wounds 5/6 of the time with the average number of additional wounds being 4. So, in 1 round of combat you've lost 8 wounds or 4 guys while the Assault marines have lost 2. Round after round you'll lose to these guys and then you've been wiped. Superb, glad you got that Turn 2 assault off.
I'm so full of What? Why would you scout such a poor unit forward when there are other options available in the same slot. These guys get inst-gibbed by S8 and up. Meaning at least 20 different weapons that most people will take will be wrecking your dumb units face. Oh and when you assault that MEQ squad you're still I4 meaning you're going to get wounds back every time. You'll be able to assault what, twice before your unit is dropped? Assuming no one shoots at them to score free points.
Conclusions
I hope I've made myself clear that Hounds and Karanak are not good selections even if they get to assault turn 2 (as if the game ends turn 2 or something?). Why would I not spam my plates and bolters and meltas on you? I can wipe a 300 point unit! Could I do that against Assault Termies?
Scouting Assault units is a bunch of malarkey, it just makes it easier to shoot this valuable unit. You can argue about Turn 2 assault means you get shot less but I'm going to shoot you with everything because you're worth 280 points. I won't have to use everything because you're just T4 puppies so I'll have plenty left over to smoke the rest of your big uglies too, trust me.
I hope, also, that I've shown the goodness that is Seeker Cavalcades and Slaaneshi Furies. Bloodcrushers are so over-priced it's silly. (Give me the old ones! For 30 points! Now!) Yet they still do better than a similarly prized unit of Hounds.
Someone said that you don't take units for the wound potential and it's a bad way to judge a unit. Fair I guess but in this case you're simply getting less. Hounds are cheap attacks, fine, but Furies are cheaper and better: With a Slaaneshi Furie you get .3 wounds per guy. For half the points of Hounds. They can also get a re-roll to charge. Imagine getting your big ol' Hound unit up near a tasty MEQ force and you fail the charge distance. Have fun getting shot to death.
10 Hounds plus Karanak [280 points]
(40 Attacks, 6 Hatred Attacks)
7.2 wounds on the charge vs. MEQ
What else can you get for that?
3 Exalted Chariots of Slaanesh with and Etherblade and a lesser gift each
(12d6 Rending Hammer of Wrath Attacks, 15 (+bonus) AP3 attacks) [285 points]
19.5 wounds on the charge vs. MEQ [10.8 Hammer of Wrath, 8.6 CC]
20 man Slaaneshi Furie unit
(40 Hammer of Wrath Attacks, 80 Rending attacks) [165 points]
8.8 wounds on the charge vs. MEQ [3.3 Hammer of Wrath, 5.5 CC]
Note: This is 120 points less. Aka a Karanak's worth
3 Juggernauts w/Banner of Blood and a Juggernaut Herald with Locus of Fury
(4 Hammer of Wrath Attacks, 21 AP3 attacks w/re-roll charge distance) [275 points]
15 wounds on the charge vs. MEQ [3.3 Hammer of Wrath, 11.6 CC)
Each of these units has the three things I've heard argued that Hounds have: Survivability, mobility and powerful CC. They all cost pretty much the same (or way less). They are have similar survivability. Though the Juggernauts only have half as many wounds. Wish they still had armor :'( . The mobility is pretty much exactly the same or better but now you get Hammer of Wrath attacks with all of them. You get double or better wound average for each of these other units. So now my question is: What does the Karanak squad have?
Scout. This is what makes Karanak and Hounds 'competitive'. So now, you've put your killer unit well within firing range of everything on my side of the board. Some people will say, "Ha! waste your shots on them" and I say, "Sure!" 280 points? And I can kill it turn 1 with bolters and heavy weapons? At 1500 points I just nuked ~20% of your army. At 2000 about 15%. But at both of those points if I'm able to do that in 1 turn that means by turn 5 you'll be wiped.
Assault Marines and Hounds are similar points but do twice as many wounds in close combat (4.4 vs. 2.2, the above ones had Rage added). Now which one can withstand small arms fire? Which one has Daemonic instability every time you lose combat? In a fight against assault marines Hounds lose most of the time. In the average fight Hounds lose by 2 then have to take instability on ld 3. Meaning they take additional wounds 5/6 of the time with the average number of additional wounds being 4. So, in 1 round of combat you've lost 8 wounds or 4 guys while the Assault marines have lost 2. Round after round you'll lose to these guys and then you've been wiped. Superb, glad you got that Turn 2 assault off.
I'm so full of What? Why would you scout such a poor unit forward when there are other options available in the same slot. These guys get inst-gibbed by S8 and up. Meaning at least 20 different weapons that most people will take will be wrecking your dumb units face. Oh and when you assault that MEQ squad you're still I4 meaning you're going to get wounds back every time. You'll be able to assault what, twice before your unit is dropped? Assuming no one shoots at them to score free points.
Conclusions
I hope I've made myself clear that Hounds and Karanak are not good selections even if they get to assault turn 2 (as if the game ends turn 2 or something?). Why would I not spam my plates and bolters and meltas on you? I can wipe a 300 point unit! Could I do that against Assault Termies?
Scouting Assault units is a bunch of malarkey, it just makes it easier to shoot this valuable unit. You can argue about Turn 2 assault means you get shot less but I'm going to shoot you with everything because you're worth 280 points. I won't have to use everything because you're just T4 puppies so I'll have plenty left over to smoke the rest of your big uglies too, trust me.
I hope, also, that I've shown the goodness that is Seeker Cavalcades and Slaaneshi Furies. Bloodcrushers are so over-priced it's silly. (Give me the old ones! For 30 points! Now!) Yet they still do better than a similarly prized unit of Hounds.
In spite of rather liking your blog generally this particular post reeks of untested slander on a perfectly viable unit.
ReplyDeleteFirst off your maths is all over the shop particularly the table which I believe has been mislabelled and seems to imply hounds have a points per wound cost over 4 times the actual figure which is 8 (inciddently the best value toughness 4 wound in the dex)
Secondly your whole synopsis for why flesh hounds are not good is based on mathhammer against other units of the same price if fighting without injury. I can tell you it is not difficult to kill seekers, seeker chariots or furies. Hounds are made of altogether sterner stuff. Applying this to the battlefield and it becomes clear that while the hounds on paper seem to do less damage then seekers, a lot more will make it to combat so the difference is in fact almost non existence. Your enemy is not going to sit there and wait for your seeker cavalcade to attack them without molesting them. Hes going to take one look, brick himself and blast most of the chariots back to the warp.
Thirdly your analysis of damage is based on charging marines which I can reliably advice you are becoming an increasingly endangered species thanks to the helldrake. Hordes are the competitive choice in the post-CSM FAQ environment and guess what hounds are better at killing?
Did you read what I wrote?
DeleteSo seeker cavalcade won't make it because the enemy will be shooting the hell out them.
Hounds suffer the same fate. Duh?
Also 16/.44 =/= 8. Dividing something by 1/2 is the same as multiplying it by 2.
Also I said Seeker Cavalcade which is a chariot unit. I personally don't like Seekers that much either.
I will elaborate on the 2nd point with a possible battle scenerio. In this scenerio it will be 20 seekers vs 15 hounds which costs precisely 240 points a piece. It will be assumed the daemons have the first turn and that enemy, a tactical squad with a plasma gun and a missile launcher is not in range for a first turn charge and is in the open.
ReplyDeleteFirst Turn Move.
Both units scout, move and run into a position where the can get a turn 2 charge.
Hounds do this without inciddent as not impeded by DT
Seekers, due to size of unit and variety of terrain will probably need to take DT tests being Cavalry.
20 tests. 3.33* Fail the test. 2.22* Fail their saves.
Enemy Shooting
Daemon first turn is over and the space marines advance within 8 inches so they can rapid fire (I know they should be in cover but I dont want to make the seekers have to do too many dt tests now)
Both units are shot at by a rapid firing tac squad with a plasma gun and a missile laucher.
Seekers
15 Bolter Shots 10 hits. 6.66* Wounds. 4.44* Wounds Sustained
2 Plasma Shots 1.33* hits. 1.11* Wounds. 0.74 Wounds Sustained
1 Frag Shot. 2 hits. 1.33* Wounds. 0.88 Wounds Sustained
Total = 6.07 Wounds Sustained
Seekers Dead = 6.07 + 2.22 = 8.29
Hounds
15 Bolter Shots. 10 Hits. 5 Wounds. 3.33* Wounds Sustained
2 Plasma Shots. 1.33* hits. 1,11* Wounds. 0.74 Wounds Sustained
1 Krak Shot. 0.66 hit. 0.55 Wounds. 0.92 Wounds Sustained (doubled due to instant death)
Total = 4.99 Wounds Sustained
Hounds Dead = 2.5
Daemon Turn 2 - Assault
In following assault phase both units charge the tactical squad. It will be assumed there is no intervening cover to reduce I and force further DT tests.
Remaining Seekers 11.71
Overwatch
15 Bolter Shots. 2.5 hits. 1.66 Wounds 1.11 Wounds Sustained
2 Plasma Shots. 0.33 hits. 0.28 Wounds. 0.19 Wounds Sustained
1 Krak Shot. 0.17 hits. 0.14 Wounds, 0.09 Wounds Sustained
Total = 1.39 Wounds Sustained
Remaining Seekers = 10.32
Seekers Attack
Hammer of Wrath. 10.32 Hit. 3.44 Wounds. 1.15 Dead Marines
10.32 x 4 = 41.28 Attacks. 27.52 Hit. 9.17 Wound. 6.12 Dead Marines
Remaining Hounds = 12.5
Overwatch
15 Bolter Shots. 2.5 Hits. 1.25 Wounds. 0.83 Wounds Sustained
2 Plasma Shots. 0.33 Hits. 0.28 Wounds. 0.19 Wounds Sustained
1 Krak Shot. 0..17 Hits, 0.14 Wounds, 0.18 Wounds Sustained (doubled due to causing ID)
Total = 1.2 Wounds Sustain
Remaining Hounds = 11.9
Hound Attack
11.9 x 3 = 35.7 Attacks. 23.8 Hits. 15.87 Wounds. 5.29 Dead Marines.
I freely admit I do not even bother to factor in the marines attacks back (which would hardly amount to much) or a wealth of other factors such as rerolls, rage, failing charges etc but the comparison is clear. What is clear is that the seekers killed 2 additional marines, thats it and lost twice as many points to achieve it. Not what I call vastly superior. If they had been charging into cover then between taking more DT tests and striking last they would have faired considerably worse then the hounds who are much better at tanking the additional damage.
So instead of countering what I've written above you've decided to compare them to another unit?
DeleteMmmk.
To my mind the only reason to take seekers over a hound competitively is because they are slightly better vs MEQ and TEQ respectively, have access to ap2 without a herald and can take icons. They are infact worse vs the ig blobs, orc mobs and other hordes due to the hounds wounding almost twice as often thanks to striking at STR 5. Sames is true vs wraiths, witches or harlies or any unit whih relies on invulnerables.
ReplyDeleteAnyone who attends tournies or plays competitively can tell you that MEQ infantry based lists are being cremated by triple drake lists so everyone who is anyone is blobbing up which makes hounds just as effective if not more so then seekers in assault in a competitive setting.
As shown above its their ability to absorb casaulties that makes hounds shrine. It takes only 3 bolter shots to kill a seeker on average while a hound for a 33% more points takes near enough 10 to take out of action. STR 8 is not anywhere near as common as you suggest in the competitive lists which spam autocannons and plasma where they once did missile launchers. Outside obligatory melta guns there is lot less about these days. Lets also not forget that 50% of all psychic powers directed at them do not work meaning that they are far less likey to be enfeebled or doomed then seekers.
I understand that my figures are not a perfect reflection of what might happen but they do, I hope, shed some light on why hounds are popular. They are fine in combat and over twice as tough as seekers while being just as fast for only 33% more points. I regularly run 15+ Hounds with jugger herald w/ fury locus and a etherblade constantly (because the hounds could do with a further 6 STR 6 I 6 ap2 Mastercrafter attacks on the charge on a model that can take STR 8 if needed) 'presienced' at the front of my army and smack the grimoir of true names on it. Admittedly it now costing near 370 points but it is a unit that must be killed (no one wants to take 60+ STR 5 rerolling to hit attacks from the hounds alone) and so tanks for the rest of my army and does so very admirably to the point my nettes often get to the front without injury or inciddent.
Are they better then seekers? No but I consider them equal to them. They are similar units with a slightly different approach. The imporatnt thing to note is both these unit are good. What I do think is that you have given the hounds a raw deal especially by presenting them as worse then crushers when they are one of the best units in the entire dex.
Now that unit does, in fact, sound very dangerous. I have trouble though, investing in any 'Deathstar' type unit that has none of these:
DeleteEternal Warrior
T5+
4+ Invuln or 3+ Armor
Why? This seems like an unfair distinction that would make it so that I'd only support Deathstar's that would clearly be broken.
Precisely, for a Deathstar, in my opinion, to work, one would have to find some truly scary units to contend with. A similar Deathstar would be Lysander and Assault termies. They have 2 of 3 criteria for Deathstar qualification and, in fact, would make mince meat of the poor pups in CC. I mean, if we're to asssume Prescience being cast upon our units (in my case it would be a DA Librarian) then it comes down to who got the charge.
If Lysander's deathstar got the charge (with just 5 termies mind you)they could expect to lose 1 guy, or take a wound on Lysander but for your sake we'll assume one died. This leaves us with 12 S8 hits, with re-roll (Prescience) which gives us 7.5 wounds. Each of these wounds kills 1 pup so 8 out of 15 are dead. Then Lysander gets his 4 attacks, re-roll so 8/9 to hit, so an additional 2.96 are dead. His are resolved as S10 so now the Herald is dead in addition to the 2 pups.
In the exchange above my Deathstar has killed nearly your entire unit and lost 1 man. The points costs are similar (400 - 370. After Daemonic instability the rest of the unit will die without double 1's.
The only way pups are an effective deathstar is if 2 things happen (and I'll agree they can be very effective):
1. The enemy decides to leave your deathstar alone
2. The enemy has no assault units to fight your scouted up very close deathstar
Now, I'm not sure of the meta near you. Hell, I don't know what kind of armies you face, maybe it's all foot Dark Eldar, so I'm assuming here that players are not foolish enough to let a Scouting deathstar to get away unscathed and not foolish enough to completely forgo CC.
To wit, against blobs Flesh Hounds may be good, I'm not sure why those blobs don't have guns with which to shoot Hounds but I digress. Seeker CAVALCADES are much better versus blobs and that's a fact. You can say they may get shot up more an yada yada but the chariots are just as resilient, better movers, can get out of combat and immediately back into it, do Rending Hammer of Wrath attacks and cause more wounds than hounds. Note: they get all of their attacks before MEQ style units as well so assault marines are still being hurt without attacks back.
I hope this better clarifies what I'm trying to say, I think hounds are a deathstar point-sink and you'll find better ways to spend your money in this codex.
I understand your view point but once again I am not convinced by your argument. I like seeker chariots and have 3 myself but they are not as resilient as hounds. There is not a shooting army that would have a problem killing 3 2hp av 11 open topped vehicles. They also eat up a heavy support slot more usefully filled by grinders or skull cannons.
DeleteI also think your lysander scenerio is flawed since it relies on them getting the charge and failed to factor in that daemons have inv saves and very good ones if the grimoir is in use. Thanks to pre-measuring the likelihood that a termie unit without a landraider will be in position to charge the much faster hounds is near none existent. The hounds will therefore get the charge 9/10 times. So lets run the math again and this time include their inv saves where relevant.
i also mentioned I keep a grimoir handy for such an occasion. I would activate it in my movement phase. If I roll badly I will redirect them or move them into cover for a turn. If I roll 3 or more then the whole unit has a 3++ which probably wont be needed.
I would use one of my skull Cannons to allow me to charge and strike at initiative. If lysander challenges I will accept and use my outnumber rerolls for any failed 3+ inv saves.
15 Hounds w/ rage and rerolls = 60 Attacks. 53.33 Hits. 35.55 wounds which will the kill termies outright.
In the challenge the herald attacks he should get 5 hits. 5 wounds which will leave lysander with two wounds. Lysander has 3 attacks back and should hit all 3 thanks to presience. He will wound all three and the herald should save them all thanks to have rerolls and a 3 inv.
In the following combat phase lysander would properly die before he struck back.
As you can see in this far more realistic scenario the hounds still held their own. Even had they struck at the same time on the assumption my bs 5 skullcannon missed. The terminators would only have hit 8.5 times, wounded 7.5 times, killing 3 hounds tops before dying.
Truth is I probably would still avoid the above combat as it poses a risk to my herald if he rolls badly and would leave it to my seekers or nettes who are better suited to TEQ killing.
What I am endeavouring to put across is that its fine to use math hammer to prove a point but you need to factor in relevant factors such as who is likely to get the charge, whether they are charging through cover and whether or not they have taken casualties on route. Without applying some pragmatism the figures will not give a good reflection of what will happen on the tabletop.
Well in your scenario you require another HQ unit with Prescience and Grimoire to make their invulns into 3++. Again it's making the unit into a Deathstar, a good deathstar obviously but a deathstar.
DeleteI'm just not sold on any of the deathstar ideas. Especially since you're spending about half your points on just this unit and the support unit for him.
What you say about Lysander not getting the charge confuses me. You have to admit it's totally situational. Saying the hounds will get the charge 9/10 because of pre-measure doesn't take into account random charges or the fact that there are 3 layouts for setup, other units on the board, etc. I mean, as the opposing player you could run a small 5 man marine screen then assault the terminators next round. There's waaaaaaaay to much variation to say which of the two will get the charge.
To run a successful deathstar one has to have a lot of support structure with it but having an army built to just have 1 unit do pretty well when it gets the charge is just not my cup of tea.
Also the Seeker Cavalcade I wrote about above was the 4HP choice. It's double the attacks and hitpoints so I figure that's more survivable. But yeah, you're again relying on getting the charge and not getting shot up. They can easily get the 3++ invuln from Grimoire on the chariots and Prescience to re-roll to hit as well. Now you've got an even better deathstar in my opinion. Again, not sold on Hounds.
Also, I wrote in another article how super-bad Soul Grinders are at shooting down planes. I'd look for ally anti-air and a quad-gun to do it for you. Hilarity ensues when you put a Khorne Herald on the quad-gun and get 4 BS7 S7 AP4 twin-linked shots :P